As an American woman over 60 who was never told to be quiet and who engages in dynamic and loud conversations regularly on my home turf, one of the things I love about Paris is how relatively quiet the restaurants are because people are speaking to each other with restraint. I don’t equate that practice with being able to speak one’s mind since the French seem to me to be ready to do that anywhere, anytime. I have always just thought that speaking in low tones in public was part of the social contract.So I don’t support a movement encouraging people to talk louder in Paris. And, of course, I don’t support the “over 60” (agism alert!) woman’s rudeness. It seems to me that the rudeness is the real issue here and is actually something Parisians might tone down.
This is a really interesting point --and I take it!
Gratuitous rudeness may well be at the very core of the issue here, though I do find it interesting to compare and contrast different cultural definitions of "rude".
As a Canadian, the idea of telling a stranger off in public is far ruder than a little lapse in volume control. But clearly these over-sixty women (sorry-they just are, much as I work hard to support the anti-ageism movement and fundamentally believe in it: https://www.vogue.co.uk/arts-and-lifestyle/article/sophie-fontanel.)
In fact I can be even more specific: well-dressed, over-60 White women.
The same variety of woman who will walk up to a stressed out young baby-mom on the street in Paris and tell her she's doing it all wrong (yes, this has happened to me on numerous occasions too.) Watch out for the scary-chic purveyors of unsolicited advice! What gives?
Btw my mom fits into the above category and would never *dream* of telling a stranger off in public. I'm sure these women would argue it comes from a good place but it certainly ruins the receiver's day. Can't get my head around it. Voila.
I don't get an ageist vibe from you, but I was a little startled to find myself in a group defined by censoriousness. The rudeness you've experienced seems out of bounds in any culture. Even noisy Americans don't generally engage in that kind of confrontration. But overly loud people are disruptive and can really ruin a nice dinner (not so much a locker room), so it's great when we can police ourselves so others aren't tempted. I will say, on a recent visit to Paris, I was alone in a very small restaurant. The woman at the next table was also solo, also American, and she told me a substantial percentage of her life story, not in a whisper. I'm sure the owner was glad to see us go! And I didn't even shush her.
Unfortunately I have to agree with the scold and say…Americans are loud, not only in paris, but everywhere. It’s a cultural thing and it’s very noticable. Practically in any other country in Europe Americans stand out by speaking louder than the “regular” local volume, to an extent that you can hear every detail of their conversation. Go to dinner at any restaurant in New York and typically the volume of the place requires you to scream over others to be heard. The noise is sometimes deafening. This being said, older women are typically the only ones that like to instruct strangers on any behavioral topic, which is why it’s mostly brought up by them.
Interessant, mais ça n’a absolument rien à voir avec l’éducation. On nous apprend, en France à défendre nos opinions, par la pertinence de nos arguments, pas en parlant au-dessus de la mêlée ! C’est une différence culturelle. Nous sommes extrêmement sensibles à cela. Les américains parlent très forts. Leur culture prend déjà beaucoup de place, dans le paysage gastronomique par exemple. Les français se montrent protecteurs de leur art de vivre.
Les différences culturelles peuvent s’expliquer par beaucoup de choses, ce n’est pas moi qui vais vous l’apprendre. L’histoire, les us et coutumes, le rapport à l’autre… Je comprends que vous vous défendiez, je trouve simplement vos arguments sur l’éducation peu pertinents et un peu tirés par les cheveux. Apprendre à un enfant à se tenir correctement et à s’exprimer calmement ce n’est pas de la soumission, c’est lui apprendre les codes de la vie en société…Et ça peut être fait avec bienveillance et respect pour son intégrité personnelle.
Je m’interroge tiendriez-vous le même discours si cette altercation avait eu lieu en Asie, ou Japon par exemple ?
Je suis tout à fait d’accord : nous devons tous apprendre à nos enfants à se comporter poliment en public. Mais il y a un juste milieu. Je précise aussi que je suis admirative de presque tous les aspects de l’éducation à la française… ainsi que des coutumes culturelles françaises en général. C’est à peu près mon seul reproche.. mais je le maintien! Il y a un élément de soumission je trouve perso, et j’observe de près depuis un bon moment. Après, encore une fois à chacun son opinion et je suis ravie d’avoir du débat ici. Je l’encourage même.
Hâte de visiter le Japon, je n’ai pas encore eu la chance. Je vous tient au courant!
Exactamente!!! I think it may have been because she was older ( we get grumpier) and the eternal French nationalism. Even in Paris. My dad was from Marseille 😆
I'm 73🫣😁 I confess I do get upset at "noise" wherever it comes from or whatever the source, but beyond looking disapproving, I wouldn't aggressively tackle anyone talking normally, if a little loudly or enthusiastically.
But look what I just found in a York Mag art about the blond young things populating NY's West Village:
"I don’t want to be an old-lady bitch, but this is the pinnacle of what happened to this fucking neighborhood,” she said when we sat down at Bar Pisellino, which even at 2 p.m. was packed with young women “I see more than anything, groups of four or five girls,” she added. “They’re always talking at a high, high pitch. It is so intolerable. It’s so unpleasant.”
I guess it's a question of becoming an old lady bitch! Oh no😂😅🤣😅😂🤣
Yes!!! I admire your follow through! After decades of being told to be smaller, quieter, shhhhh, don’t take up space, don’t complain or contradict etc etc at the age of 39 my fucks have runneth out and I’m finding great freedom in speaking my mind, debating and not being scared to stand up for myself (with respect etc etc obvs ) and at whatever decibel I choose!
Italo-Brazilian here and I absolutely agree with your POV. Unfortunately last election cycle just showed how much France has a big unresolved issue with foreigners, I don’t think this is just an Anglo thing. As a longtime resident of the 20ème arrondissement, I’ve lost count of how many times old french ladies berated African mamas, or Latinas, for talking loud, for laughing generously, for just taking up space. It’s sad, and I have to say I personally ended up adapting. Whenever I am back home people will always tell me: why are you whispering? Because my baseline has become wayyy too low for my native comrades 🥲
In the bistro, I get it. On the train, totally. But post-pilates high AND running into a gf chez vestiare? Madame vintage could've just stayed in her lane.
I think it’s funny that as an American we don’t expect tourists to try to fit in (except to speak English ). But I have felt the pressure when in France (the old lady glares at my cut offs…). But despite the endless nonfiction in English commanding us to eat, dress and parent like the French, we do not actually all wish to be French (at least not all the time in every way). I have wondered if the reprimand is not so much that your loudness is ruining their environment— but more like a “don’t be ridiculous everyone wants to be us”.
Ps. I lived overseas for many years, my children were in international / British school, and it is so true, in the French system we aren’t teach to speak outloud or to a crowd. Oldest remain us to be quiet. Oldest know better …
YES Mon! 👊 sciences po flashbacks… so much shade just for existing, in any language. And those poor professors! No one ever answered their questions in lectures. (Except me obviously.) Loved your nationally award winning sixth grade speech on “l’école idéale” and love this. Brava. 👏
HA. Thank you and thank you also for reminding me what my speech was about 25 years ago. These Sciences Po grads really are brainy. Great at fiction writing too ...
As an American woman over 60 who was never told to be quiet and who engages in dynamic and loud conversations regularly on my home turf, one of the things I love about Paris is how relatively quiet the restaurants are because people are speaking to each other with restraint. I don’t equate that practice with being able to speak one’s mind since the French seem to me to be ready to do that anywhere, anytime. I have always just thought that speaking in low tones in public was part of the social contract.So I don’t support a movement encouraging people to talk louder in Paris. And, of course, I don’t support the “over 60” (agism alert!) woman’s rudeness. It seems to me that the rudeness is the real issue here and is actually something Parisians might tone down.
This is a really interesting point --and I take it!
Gratuitous rudeness may well be at the very core of the issue here, though I do find it interesting to compare and contrast different cultural definitions of "rude".
As a Canadian, the idea of telling a stranger off in public is far ruder than a little lapse in volume control. But clearly these over-sixty women (sorry-they just are, much as I work hard to support the anti-ageism movement and fundamentally believe in it: https://www.vogue.co.uk/arts-and-lifestyle/article/sophie-fontanel.)
In fact I can be even more specific: well-dressed, over-60 White women.
The same variety of woman who will walk up to a stressed out young baby-mom on the street in Paris and tell her she's doing it all wrong (yes, this has happened to me on numerous occasions too.) Watch out for the scary-chic purveyors of unsolicited advice! What gives?
Btw my mom fits into the above category and would never *dream* of telling a stranger off in public. I'm sure these women would argue it comes from a good place but it certainly ruins the receiver's day. Can't get my head around it. Voila.
I don't get an ageist vibe from you, but I was a little startled to find myself in a group defined by censoriousness. The rudeness you've experienced seems out of bounds in any culture. Even noisy Americans don't generally engage in that kind of confrontration. But overly loud people are disruptive and can really ruin a nice dinner (not so much a locker room), so it's great when we can police ourselves so others aren't tempted. I will say, on a recent visit to Paris, I was alone in a very small restaurant. The woman at the next table was also solo, also American, and she told me a substantial percentage of her life story, not in a whisper. I'm sure the owner was glad to see us go! And I didn't even shush her.
Unfortunately I have to agree with the scold and say…Americans are loud, not only in paris, but everywhere. It’s a cultural thing and it’s very noticable. Practically in any other country in Europe Americans stand out by speaking louder than the “regular” local volume, to an extent that you can hear every detail of their conversation. Go to dinner at any restaurant in New York and typically the volume of the place requires you to scream over others to be heard. The noise is sometimes deafening. This being said, older women are typically the only ones that like to instruct strangers on any behavioral topic, which is why it’s mostly brought up by them.
I'm Canadian though ;)
Interessant, mais ça n’a absolument rien à voir avec l’éducation. On nous apprend, en France à défendre nos opinions, par la pertinence de nos arguments, pas en parlant au-dessus de la mêlée ! C’est une différence culturelle. Nous sommes extrêmement sensibles à cela. Les américains parlent très forts. Leur culture prend déjà beaucoup de place, dans le paysage gastronomique par exemple. Les français se montrent protecteurs de leur art de vivre.
Les différences culturelles peuvent s’expliquer par beaucoup de choses, ce n’est pas moi qui vais vous l’apprendre. L’histoire, les us et coutumes, le rapport à l’autre… Je comprends que vous vous défendiez, je trouve simplement vos arguments sur l’éducation peu pertinents et un peu tirés par les cheveux. Apprendre à un enfant à se tenir correctement et à s’exprimer calmement ce n’est pas de la soumission, c’est lui apprendre les codes de la vie en société…Et ça peut être fait avec bienveillance et respect pour son intégrité personnelle.
Je m’interroge tiendriez-vous le même discours si cette altercation avait eu lieu en Asie, ou Japon par exemple ?
Je suis tout à fait d’accord : nous devons tous apprendre à nos enfants à se comporter poliment en public. Mais il y a un juste milieu. Je précise aussi que je suis admirative de presque tous les aspects de l’éducation à la française… ainsi que des coutumes culturelles françaises en général. C’est à peu près mon seul reproche.. mais je le maintien! Il y a un élément de soumission je trouve perso, et j’observe de près depuis un bon moment. Après, encore une fois à chacun son opinion et je suis ravie d’avoir du débat ici. Je l’encourage même.
Hâte de visiter le Japon, je n’ai pas encore eu la chance. Je vous tient au courant!
What can I - loudly - say? I'm a Latina
Vive y deja vivir!
Exactamente!!! I think it may have been because she was older ( we get grumpier) and the eternal French nationalism. Even in Paris. My dad was from Marseille 😆
Ha!!
My mom is in her 70s though and she would never dream of saying that to someone.
Actually I've noticed her asking everyone to speak louder lately because she can't hear as well!! (We happily oblige of course.)
We are getting less shy and of course less mindful about speaking our minds out loud. But la politesse always. Specially for latinas🩷
I'm 73🫣😁 I confess I do get upset at "noise" wherever it comes from or whatever the source, but beyond looking disapproving, I wouldn't aggressively tackle anyone talking normally, if a little loudly or enthusiastically.
But look what I just found in a York Mag art about the blond young things populating NY's West Village:
"I don’t want to be an old-lady bitch, but this is the pinnacle of what happened to this fucking neighborhood,” she said when we sat down at Bar Pisellino, which even at 2 p.m. was packed with young women “I see more than anything, groups of four or five girls,” she added. “They’re always talking at a high, high pitch. It is so intolerable. It’s so unpleasant.”
I guess it's a question of becoming an old lady bitch! Oh no😂😅🤣😅😂🤣
Louder ! 💕
Yes!!! I admire your follow through! After decades of being told to be smaller, quieter, shhhhh, don’t take up space, don’t complain or contradict etc etc at the age of 39 my fucks have runneth out and I’m finding great freedom in speaking my mind, debating and not being scared to stand up for myself (with respect etc etc obvs ) and at whatever decibel I choose!
Italo-Brazilian here and I absolutely agree with your POV. Unfortunately last election cycle just showed how much France has a big unresolved issue with foreigners, I don’t think this is just an Anglo thing. As a longtime resident of the 20ème arrondissement, I’ve lost count of how many times old french ladies berated African mamas, or Latinas, for talking loud, for laughing generously, for just taking up space. It’s sad, and I have to say I personally ended up adapting. Whenever I am back home people will always tell me: why are you whispering? Because my baseline has become wayyy too low for my native comrades 🥲
In the bistro, I get it. On the train, totally. But post-pilates high AND running into a gf chez vestiare? Madame vintage could've just stayed in her lane.
My thoughts precisely.
I think it’s funny that as an American we don’t expect tourists to try to fit in (except to speak English ). But I have felt the pressure when in France (the old lady glares at my cut offs…). But despite the endless nonfiction in English commanding us to eat, dress and parent like the French, we do not actually all wish to be French (at least not all the time in every way). I have wondered if the reprimand is not so much that your loudness is ruining their environment— but more like a “don’t be ridiculous everyone wants to be us”.
INTERESTING.
I had the same experience in a very loud restaurant. She caught me off guard.
She spoke so aggressively.
I will never understand why people can’t be nice or understanding.
I think this actually gets to the crux of the point, or at least part of it --it's often the tone with which the reprimand is given isn't it?
If they said it nicely, I'd be inclined to understand.
Ps. I lived overseas for many years, my children were in international / British school, and it is so true, in the French system we aren’t teach to speak outloud or to a crowd. Oldest remain us to be quiet. Oldest know better …
It's strange isn't it. I am all for respecting your elders but it's a bit much!
Good reminder to be less docile! WWMD?
Force à nous ahhaa
YES Mon! 👊 sciences po flashbacks… so much shade just for existing, in any language. And those poor professors! No one ever answered their questions in lectures. (Except me obviously.) Loved your nationally award winning sixth grade speech on “l’école idéale” and love this. Brava. 👏
HA. Thank you and thank you also for reminding me what my speech was about 25 years ago. These Sciences Po grads really are brainy. Great at fiction writing too ...
Love this! And yes, I agree it is cultural and gender related. So keep being you!
Thanks Niki !! The gender thing is interesting isn’t it..
I'm a loud talker and a hand gesture-er too! A double whammy, lol.
🤌
Loved this!
Thanks Julia!
Bravo 👏